Vince Furfaro Retired Boeing, Military AOC & USN Aviation Ordnance Chief
Mr. Furfaro will be sharing with us his memories of the close Italian community that lived in an area once called Garlic Gulch. It was centered around two churches and a vibrant commercial district, entirely destroyed, where the entrance to the I-90 Tunnel is now.
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Vince
Furfaro. Photo: Madeline Crowley©
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This interview has been edited, condensed
and some pictures repeat to break up the text.
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Would you like to start with the pictures you brought?
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| Furfaro Family. Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
This is my mother and father and my two older brothers (pause).
Now, everyone in this picture is dead.
I'm sorry.
You look quite a bit like your father.
This has to have been taken about 1925 because I guess
this one (points to photo) was born in 1924 and he died in 1932. So (pause) this
other uncle just died about five years ago; he was born in 1923.
You also have your mother's eyes. She looks like a really kind
person.
Oh, she died when she was 39.
She died really young.
Yes.
How old were you?
I was about eight.
I'm sorry that must have been tough.
I remember because I had a younger brother, he was what a year
and a half, about 18 months.
Oh! Your poor father...
(pause) Yeah. And there were two older brothers too. There was four
of us. (shows another picture) This is another one. Now, this is my dad here
and my uncle. I figure this had to be taken about 1940.
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| Vince Furfaro's Father & Uncle Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
Was this taken where you live now?
Yes. It was taken on what was a front porch, then. That's the
house I grew up in, actually, the houses were side by side. I mean, I'm living
in my uncle's house now because it's smaller. That's the only reason. I still
have both properties.
That's
terrific. Where is this picture taken?
I don't really know where this was taken (pause). It may have
been taken in the old house because when I look at the lamp… (pause) but I
can't tell. Since we had a fire in 1933 a lot of pictures were destroyed,
family pictures and stuff.
How old were you then? (pointing to a picture, not shown)
I was probably about 18 months. Not quite two years old because
it was I think November of 1933.
Do you remember that fire?
I was upstairs. This uncle came up and he got my mother, he just
dragged her out. I was thrown out of the top floor, the back window and another
neighbor caught me. The house was an old Victorian with, basically, (pause) four
floors. There was two basements, a main floor and then an upper place where the
bedrooms were.
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| House Vince Furfaro's father built. Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
Wow. Yes, that would be pretty memorable. So your family lost that
house. Did you have a barn attached at that point?
It was just a house. They said it was wiring, the wiring in the
house caught on (pause) fire. Of course the wiring probably came after the
house was built.
That makes sense back then wiring was not usually done by an
electrician and some of those lines would have been covered in fabric.
Most of them probably were. (pause) (laughs) I don't know if I'd
call it fabric but...
Wasn’t it similar to cotton twill?
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| Image from: http://emmanuel-electrical.blogspot.com/ |
You have to be careful with fire. (pause) Recently a friend, threw an aerosol
that he turned on to to kill all the fleas and such in his chicken house. He just
turned it on and threw it into the chicken shack and then left. (laughs) Well, he
caught the thing on fire. The chickens
were lucky; they got out. It did destroy the shed where they were kept. Just
the heat from (pause) the aerosol cans was enough to cause a fire.
That's why I was wondering if it was a barn because it doesn't
take much heat with hay. The dust is just ready to ignite. Mr. Crane had mentioned
that there were a lot of farms, small family farms, in this area when you were
growing up.
Oh yes because we grew our own food. That's why right now the
land is so popular. (laughs) You know they say they could put up, a figure of around 60 units
just on the land that I own. Maybe even more if they went with these (pause) box
things that they're building now.
They are about the size of this room. Most of 'em aren't even
this big. Oh, they could put more condominiums than that right on my land.
Right across the alley from me, they just put in three units. They let them (the
new construction) go right back up to the alley. Before, when we wanted to
build, we all had to be at least 10 feet away from the alley, not anymore. For
these three new units, the cheapest one went for four hundred and thirty-five
thousand. They put three of 'em up on what was a single family lot.
Yes, (pause) it’s definitely changing the nature of the city
again.
(pause) Well, like I say, I grew up, I think, when it was a
better city, much better.
I'm really curious to hear more about that. It sounds like your
family had a big stretch of land.
It wasn't that big, I mean my dad's (land) was four thousand and
my uncle had eight thousand square feet. The point is in those days you
couldn't have your house occupy more than what was it, a quarter of the lot?
Well, my uncle's house was six hundred and twenty-five square feet. And ours
was about, eight, eight or nine. So that (laughs) left a lot of land (pause) to
grow food. Every year we canned.
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| Uncle's House (where I-5 is now). Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
What grew best?
Oh well, that's hard to say because they (my parents and their
siblings) did an excellent job. Everything grew (laughs).
So they grew corn, and vegetables, and tomatoes...
Peppers, tomatoes, cucumbers. Oh, God - what else (pause)
lettuce. I'm trying to think. (laughs) Oh, green beans, and peas they used to grow
on a framework.
Sweet peas?
Yes, there were sweet peas (pause) Oh, they owned carrots too.
Potatoes?
Oh yes! (laughs) A lot of potatoes.
Did you have chickens?
Oh yes. Chickens and rabbits, both. I had a pet goat (laughs). When
they were building the first Highway 10 (which was before I-90) one of the
steam shovels killed it (pause).
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| Pygmy goat. Image: http://www.babypygmygoats.com/ |
How? It scared it to death?
Well I… I don't know it got loose or something because of the
noise.
Oh. It probably was afraid and ran.
It was all that construction.
Goats are funny. They have very interesting personalities.
I know. (laughs)
They're starting to let people have animals again in city limits.
Now you can have two dwarf goats.
Pygmy, yeah.
In the city limits I think you can now have pygmy goats and three
or four ducks or chickens...
Oh, I think they raised the limits but you used to be allowed
four animals of all kinds. I mean, included cats, dogs, chickens, everything.
But now they raised it because so many people are raising chickens. I don't
know what the limit is now.
Did you have other animals?
Well, that was mainly it. Of course we had a couple of dogs and
cats but (laughs) I don't consider those...
They're
just pets.
Yes.
And what was the goat used for?
Nothing he was just, just a little, he, he never got that old
(laughs). I would have probably used him to cut the grass down or blackberries
(pause). That's something I'm still surprised at with the city (pause), that
they don't use goats and sheep more often.
Some people are doing that.
Yes, but why isn't the city? (pause) When I was in the service
we used sheep and goats on top of the ammunition hills
(dug-in bunkers) to keep the grass down.
Maybe the city has contracts with unions?
Well, yes. That's another thing, because I don't consider (pause)
people who work for the city necessarily should have a union. (pause) I mean,
their benefits are pretty good compared to the average worker. (pause) I just
wish more workers were unionized.
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| Furfaro Property. Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
It's a troubling shift in the working world.
Oh, you read some of the stuff that's going on (pause). I think
it's really… when know how far and how hard people fought to get unions.
Lots of labor activists, who on top of raising families and
working long hours and raising food and doing laundry by hand, they unionized.
They made a lot of the things we take for granted available, the five-day work-week
and benefits.
I don't even know how we did all the stuff that we did
considering everything that had to be done back then. How did we have time to
do everything? And today, we have all this stuff and we don't seem to have any
time, (laughs) any spare time.
Yes, it defies understanding (pause).
Your family raised all your own food for yourselves and you canned
food. Then did you also sell some of that food or was just enough to keep the
family?
Well, no we gave a lot of it away. I mean, there was an awful
lot of food (laughs). Especially, the one I laugh about is zucchini. Because, you
know we used to ring somebody's bell and run because no one wanted it.
Right, bushels and bushels...
And now everyone wants a zucchini. I think it's kind of funny!
Do you know Mutual Fish?
Yes!
He used to be down one block on 14th Avenue. I'm talking about
1930. The building is still there, the original site. We used to buy tuna from
him every year because we canned our own tuna. (pause)
Also we also used to buy extra corn because we couldn't raise
enough (ourselves). Well, in those days if you didn't can it – you didn't have
it - and the winter was long.
What happened to the Mutual Fish store during internment?
(pause) I'm not sure...
Because they reopened, so somebody must have watched their
business for them.
Well, I know the people in back of us were Japanese; they lived
across the alley. They they kept their owns. They did go to the internment
camps but when they came back, I guess they had honest people that didn't steal
their business or homes.
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| Judkins Park Area - 1891 Image: Collection Vince Furfaro |
So they moved back?
Yes.
I've read only 50 percent of the interned Japanese from Seattle who
lived here came back. (pause) Apparently a lot of people lost everything.
That's true but I just assumed they started over again.
I guess many people because they had already lost everything then
moved where nobody had been interned. A lot of people moved east.
Well, I do know that the Italians that they (interned) took and relocated in Idaho. I understand a lot of them stayed
there, but they'd settled and started farms and stuff and...
There were Italians relocated during World War II as well?
(pause) There were probably were Germans too.
They were imprisoned also in Idaho?
Well, I know the Italians were because somebody wrote a book
about it.
Okay, I'll do some research on that, (see below):
Did your family know of anyone?
Not there, no.
So, it wasn't people from Seattle?
I think (it was) if they weren't citizens. I guess that's the
only way, that was the only difference; they weren't citizens.
Right. Although with the Japanese Americans here all their kids were
citizens so... it's hard to figure out the logic of that.
Well, with the Japanese I don't want to say I understand it,
because they did not intern anyone that was living in the east (part of the
state). You just had to be on the coast (to be interned).
Was the fear at the time was that they would send signals to the
ships or something?
Yes. They figured that they would help (Japan). As far as I know,
there was never an incident that they could recall.
No, there was nothing. That was proven. There were some people who
in the face of war, chose to send their eldest son home and those sons were then
put in the military in Japan. But that was more out of fear rather than
allegiance or spying or anything like that.
But the thing was that, because I know people here that when
World War II started who weren't involved (with the country of origin). Still,
they had to go back to Italy and because they were all in the army, sort of a
reserve deal, so they went back there.
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| St. Mary's Church. Photo: Madelinc Crowley |
So were they legally required to go back?
I don't know how legally that could be if they'd been living
here for 10 or 12 years.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe then it was family loyalty, the family
back home...
No. There was something where they had to go back. I think if
they weren't citizens because I think at that time you could only be a citizen
in one country. Now you can have dual citizenship which (laughs) doesn't really
makes sense to me but...
(pause) It's interesting trying
to reconstruct what happened.
So as you remember the neighborhood as a child, it sounds like
there were a lot of Italian families there and they had enough land to feed
their own families. And then there were some Japanese, did they also have farms
there?
(pause) I wouldn't say that, not in our neighborhood.
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| Kent Valley farmers. Image from: http://gkhs.org/kent-history/ |
Yeah, I wonder what happened to those farms during internment...
They were taken over by others, to run.
Yes, during war time the government was not going to let the land
go fallow...
In fact, that's to me one of the worst things they ever did here
– to allow farmland to be converted into homes. Now, I think they wish they had
the (kept) Kent Valley (agricultural) because that was one of the most productive valleys (pause) you know in the world before they turned it into manufacturing.
Now it's all super stores. It’s a flat, flat plane, perfect for
farming.
So as a child what was your day like, do you remember?
(pause) We went to school all day and didn't get home until,
three or three thirty, something like that. And basically, we played. Now also,
of course I sold newspapers in, I think 1943 or 44?
I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy Frank Turco?
They've got a plaque for him down at the, in front of the old Woolworths
building at 3rd and Pike? That's where we sold newspapers.
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Newsstand photo Seattle Municipal Archives Photograph Collection
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(Referring to news photo below) Now, this kid here was killed in the (pause) first days of the
Korean War in July. He was just due to get in out in July of 1950 and the Korean
War started in June. He was killed just right (pause) before he was due to come
home.
Oh his poor mother, how heartbreaking. (pause)
It’s a wonderful photo.
Well, this was the one I think I saved (pause) because this is when they were still having raids. This was on the backside of the newspaper.
They just had things set up so that the air raids they just
handed out funeral money (pause) right after the bombings.
Wow (pause). People complain about how difficult things are now.
But when you think about what it was like, you know the First World War and the
Second (WWII) and the Great Depression and those were incredibly chaotic times to look back
on...
I did read something about somebody just recently after this last recession. They said the grandparents had no problem adjusting (to
recession). They said their son (pause) had a little problem but not
much. But they said the grandsons, the grand children were completely lost
during this last recession.
That makes sense.
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Vince Furfaro's older brothers fixing a machine gun on the wing of a plane, WWII.
Ardennes Forest, Thanksgiving Day. 1944
Collection: Vince Furfaro
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That's another thing I have actually with the schools. When I came
out of high school I was ready to have a job. I could support myself. Today, half
the kids graduating can't do that. That to me is a failure of the system that (idea)
that everyone's going to go on to college. I sit back and say, how did they
design this? Say, even the pyramids, how they did they do that? How did they develop wine, was it an accident or (laughs and
gestures) or (just going out and doing it).
Did your parents make their own wine?
Everyone on the block made wine. (laughs) (link goes to story with pictures from another family, showing press, barrels, jug bottles, etc)
Did you have a grape arbor? Was it close to the house?
No, no. We bought the grapes, they were sent up from California.
When the grapes would come from California, did everybody buy a
share? How did it work?
We would buy, I think, 50 boxes at a time. They were 25- or 35-pound
boxes, I think. No, they were 24-pound boxes because I think they're 32 now.
And then we'd make the first group of wine, and then more after because that's
all we had room for.
So you and your family would make your own wine, or would you do
it as a block?
No, no, no! Each family did their own. We used to go help all
the others but...
Did you have a tub that you would stomp the grapes in? Or how did
it work?
Well, my dad made presses. They had a giant press and then he
had that grinder.
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| Vince Furfaro as newsboy. Collection: Vince Furfaro |
So was the press wooden with a big screw?
It was more like we made (it) from a washing machine. Remember
the old... (gestures)
The crank washing machines?
It was based on that but they were metal. So we sat there and
we'd spend all night squeezing (laughs). Because the way he had it set, he had
14 and 17… the barrel would hold for fermenting. And as soon as we got rid of
those (grapes) we'd order (more) again. So we could make, I think it was between
two and three (rounds of fermenting). We usually had 200 gallons.
Each family had roughly 200 gallons of wine?
Yes, each.
Wow. So each family knew how to ferment and how to store and how
to cork.
Well, what's funny is that one of my cousins finally took out
somewhere. He said it was completely different. The way, he said they'd do it.
We'd never used airlocks and stuff like that but we'd never lost any wine
either.
Right. So all of the knowledge is sort of lost?
I think it will be when (pauses) my generation's probably the
last one. Then John Croce I think I mentioned him, he has that Pacific Foods Importers (PFI), well, he still makes wine. (pause) Actually, it's pretty good
wine; he's the last one I know. Well no, I'll take that back. There's another
lawyer but he doesn't - I don't know, I don't know how he does his. I think
John Croce has what they call a ‘Dethatcher’ that pulls all the stems out of
the grapes. Then he just throws the grapes in. Where we threw everything,
everything went in, bugs anything… anything that was in the grapes went into
the wine to ferment. And it's funny how each person had his own way of making
wine.
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| Colman Fieldhouse Built by the Italian Community. Photo: Madeline Crowley |
And so each family's wine would have been a little bit different.
My dad's was probably the driest
(pause) and probably the most strongest.
And then would the people sort of share wine? Was there one guy who
everybody was trying to get his wine?
No... I would say that (pause)… How do explain it? Well, like
Easter was on a Sunday. My dad would have taken a gallon of wine, and we would
have probably gone and visited all our friends with that gallon of wine. And
they'd be drinking theirs and vice versa. Then this John Croce set up a deal,
probably 50 years ago, to judge the best homemade wine. I don't know if that's
still going on or not.
Well, it sounds like it would be two people competing every year,
if it's just John and the lawyer left!
Oh, oh no. That's the older generation, oh there must be more. Actually,
I would love to get my hands on a press again. My brother, the one that was in
that picture, this year he moved to California. He got all the grapes he wanted
for nothing so he took the wine press down there, then he said he didn't have
time to make wine, so he gave it away instead of asking if anyone wanted it!
Anyway I know one of my nieces wants to make wine again. I told her it just doesn't
pan out anymore - money wise. We used to pay maybe (pause), I doubt if we paid
in two dollars for a box. That’s because I remember (laughs) how upset my dad was
when it hit two dollars a box! In those days I don't even think they wanted a
dollar for a box of grapes. You'd only make maybe a gallon out of each box.
So you'd bring the grapes and then you'd put them through the
press and then did they go directly into the bottles? What was the process?
Oh, no. We'd let them ferment. My dad would let it go for eight
days.
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| Furfaro Property. Photo: Collection Vince Furfaro |
In the big barrels?
Yes.
And the barrels, what kind of wood was that?
Well, oak, whiskey barrels usually. Almost everyday we had these huge wooden
paddles and had to keep, turning it because could (pause) get kind of - shall
we say explosive? (laughs) You had to keep the bubbles (from building) because
I know when we took the (pause) the little stops out of the barrel out of the
bottom it came out under pressure. And we had half barrels too. We'd let it run
there and then we'd take it pause) like pitchers and a quart at a time pour it into a 50
gallon barrel, straining it at the same time (laughs).
Through cheesecloth?
Yes. And then when you got through filling all the three barrels
(pause) usually you would fill the three barrels with one making. Then just,
the second round you'd fill, you top 'em off because we had I think, three or
four barrels for aging, and three barrels for fermenting.
What would you top them off with?
(pause) We wouldn't. I mean you just (pause) poured the wine in
there. When I say top it off, I meant that whatever you didn't fill entirely
from the first group, you just added it to the second. All the barrels weren't
necessarily full. Then, you did lose some to evaporation because all we had was
a piece of wood over the top of the hole for breathing. Then I guess they’re
ready to drink at three or four months. That's the other thing, we still had
wine in some of the other barrels from the year before. In fact I think I got
16 gallons, in the last wine we made.
So you kept it in the barrels until you were ready to drink it and
then you'd fill up a gallon, and bring that upstairs?
Well, no. We had canners. Then we'd bring those up.
So it'd stay in the barrel until it was ready, until you were actually
ready to drink it. Interesting.
What is what is amazing is in Europe where they had these
thousand gallon barrels. (pause) See, that's the other thing - we'd have to clean
the barrels after they were empty. Wash 'em out with cold water, you know
(laughs), obviously you didn't use soap for anything.
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| Furfaro Property. Collection: Vince Furfaro |
It sounds like it was a fairly intensive process for a while.
Oh, yes. It would be because the grapes would actually start
melting in the basement. We had to have space for 'em in the basement. Once
they were delivered to the house you didn't want to wait too long before you
started putting them in the barrels.
Would you take time off from school during that time period, or
you would just come home from school and get right to work?
Well, my dad always worked nights so he came home at 12 o'clock
and that's when he'd do a lot of it. We also had the press, that's where we
took all the musk from the (pause) fermenting barrels, I guess.
That must have been stinky.
It was.
Did it get on your clothes?
Not really. If it did it washed out. We’d put it in this press
and then it stayed there everyday for maybe three or four weeks. Everyday we’d
turn it one or two turns. And you'd end up with maybe a ton of grapes, then (after
pressing you’d end) with something maybe six or eight inches tall. Then we used
to pick that up, to break it up and take it out and bury it in the backyard
(laughs).
When you would come home from school your dad was at work, so how
did you guys know what to do?
Well, we just did.
You just had learned it by that point.
We all worked from when we were young. Like in this photo here,
when I was selling papers on Saturdays I'd go there at 10 o'clock in the morning.
I'd stay there until maybe 10 o'clock at night. I worked a 12-hour day (when I
was a kid), my brother, too. We all worked for him (Mr Turco). We brought 50
cents home for working 12 hours! Some of the others made a little more because
they used to stay until midnight but they were older than I was too.
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| Article on Mr. Turco, displayed at his former news stand, 3rd & Pine |
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| The Turco name incorporated into the news stand structure |
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| The former Turco news stand, 3rd & Pine |
Later when I was older at 6 o’clock in the morning I used to buy
the papers right off the press, I was going home and I wanted the latest paper
for the sports. This guy would find me downtown, he’d be going down their to
get the papers to sell and it was funny he’d always find me. His name was Jim.
He wasn’t Never Sleep?
No, that guy was along Jackson.
So you would come home and, and if you had your paper route on
Saturday, who would be working on the wine during that time? How did things get
done?
(laughs) That's what I'm talking about. When I look back, I
don't know how it got done because actually every night after school I went
down and worked ‘til six o'clock. From four to six selling newspapers.
Then you would come home and you must have had to, well, someone
had to cook.
Well (pause) I guess we did.
Because it didn't sound like you had a stepmother.
Oh, I did. We got one later but that was after World War II.
By the time you had a step mother you were about what age?
12 (laughs).
So for four years your dad was working, dealing with everything?
Well, I stayed with this aunt for maybe a year. The thing was
that were four boys and at that time CPS would not allow a father to have, a
single father to have children. (pause) Now, I guess either a teacher or
someone turned it in. So the judge decided that we should stay with the family.
All the neighbors around us said that they would take care of us. (pause) You
know, I can't imagine that happening today. Anyway, the judge said that we
would stay with the family. So, I ended up staying like two years at one place,
and another year at another place. And then another place. In the end, there
about four or five families where I was moved around.
And all of those families were right in this same neighborhood.
Well, they were all related... everyone was related or else in
the same two families on the same block. It was a close-knit (pause) community.
And I don't think people realize how close they were. (pause) Now, I don't know
if it was because everyone was from the same community in Italy.
Oh, they were? Okay, that makes sense.
Everyone in this area was from Calabria. They all came over here
and they all stayed, basically, in the same area.
Did people from the old community do
the San Gennaro Festival?
All of that is gone. We don’t do any of the things we did
growing up. We had meetings (get togethers) every week, then Easter and Palm
Sunday were very big days. They were big holidays were people visited (each
other’s houses) and dressed up in their very best.
With shared food similar to a village
party? Were the streets closed off?
No, the streets weren’t even paved back then, the street I live on was only paved less than 25 years ago.
Your poor father, first he lost his wife, and if the community
hadn't been willing to take you boys he would have lost his entire family in
one fell swoop.
Yes, but the oldest boy was 17 and another was 14, (pause) then
there was myself and the baby. (pause) See, we were raised differently than the
others. I was born more or less responsible for my younger brother. And the one
next to me was responsible for me. It sort of worked that way that each one a
had a responsibility of looking out for each other. Then again, we had Godparents.
I don't even know if they exist anymore.
They do but they don't have any real function anymore. (pause)
Of course, mine were in Vancouver so they were out of the
question. While all the others from the family were here (in this
neighborhood).
Did you have a good relationship with your uncle and your aunt? Moving
to their house wasn't disruptive.
No. It wasn't. (pause) Other than the fact that you feel you're
in the way. (pause) Everyone in this neighborhood had four, five, or six kids!
You have to realize that most of the houses around here then were two or three
bedroom houses and all those kids.
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| Photo: Colleciton Vince Furfaro |
Right. You said the houses were quite small like your uncle's
house was about 600 square feet.
Yes, but he also had three stories too, three floors.
Well, that helps. (laughs)
Yes, there were two bedrooms up above. The girl had one (laughs)
and then four boys in the other (laughs). That was his (the uncle’s) kids! Then
I'd think about the people who used to come and visit from out of the city like
Vancouver and places like that, and, I says where did they stay?
They probably threw a sleeping bag on the living room floor.
Yeah, that's about what it amounted to.
Then when you moved to their house where did you sleep?
Well, I was in a bunk bed up in the fourth or the third floor.
With all the boys. That must have been hard, you lost your mother
and you lost your house.
(pause) But then they rebuilt it here again. They turned around
and two guys, they basically rebuilt that house. I don't think it took them a
year. They did everything themselves from the cabinets (pause). You know, it's
a funny thing. I still haven't replaced anything that they did.
People knew how to build back then.
I knew the city went in there (the house) they were going to do
something at one point. They looked at the basement where we have 8 by 8 beams holding
up the main floor (laughs). They were sort of shocked when they saw how the
concrete walls were this thick. See, that was all done by neighbors.
Did your uncle and your father build it?
No, no, no. They hired some one named Prentice, and he built
that house.
In fact, one person who owned a grocery store, he said, 'I can't
help you financially but you can have all the food you need.' My dad said it
took him until World War II to pay him off.
That was an Italian grocery on Hiawatha; it was in their house.
It’s where the big apartment building is now, the artists’ lofts. It was the
DeMarti’s Grocery store. I don’t think anybody would do that today. In those
days you didn’t buy that much from the grocery store, you’d buy 50 lbs. of
flour, 50 lbs. of sugar or a 100 pounds because everyone did their own baking.
 |
| Artists' Lofts. Hiawatha Avenue. |
That's the kind of friends you had. I can remember going to
others people's homes when they were doing some work or moving their houses in.
A lot of the houses weren't built on the site.
Right. So when something would happen to anyone, the entire small
collaborative community would come together and pour a foundation or provide
groceries until the family was back on its feet. That kind of connection also
existed in the Japanese community, and in the Chinese community and maybe every
small community back then.
I think it did, I think it did.
There was a strong Danish community and a strong Swedish community
in the neighborhood. Also a strong Jewish community so people kind of took care
of their own.
You know those three houses across the street here? (Yesler
& 23rd)
 |
| Photo: Madeline Crowley |
Across from the (Douglass Truth) library? The pretty gingerbread Victorians?
Yes. Now, I knew the Jewish families that lived in those in the
40s. This was a Jewish community at that time.
I walked to the old Washington Middle School where Pratt Park
is. That was the one I went to and (pause) I'm trying to think what was the
name of it before it was Langston Hughes (laughs).
Oh, the Bikur Cholim.
Yeah. And right down the street from this library (Douglass
Truth) was the old Brenner Bakery.
Now, it’s C-A-Y-A.
 |
| Photo: Madeline Crowley |
Oh, that was the first Brenners?
That was the original Brenner’s bakery. I think the last brother
died about, of the original ones, about two years ago or something. (Charles Brenner Obit)
And then they moved...
I know they're in Bellevue the last I heard.
They moved after there was a fire I think in the 60s during the
time of unrest. And they then moved to Bellevue. Understandably.
Well, the point is at that time though the Jewish community had
more or less begun to dissolve. Actually, it was bussing, I think, that's
really caused the exodus out of Seattle.
Going back to when you were growing up, the community was
incredibly tight and would pitch in to help build each other's homes. Did everybody
go to the
church that's right there?
So not everybody went to the same church?
Not necessarily. I mean those that were around the old Colman School
(now NAAM) most of them went to Mt. Virgin. But those around here went to St.
Mary's. Back in those days, St. Mary's was the premium Catholic Church in
Seattle, not St. James. That was because of the Italian community here.
Premium in what sense?
Well, the most priests wanted to be there because it was considered,
well, a regular Italian community.
So it was kind of a plum assignment because you'd get good food,
good wine and loyal parishioners?
Well, yes. You know where St. Mary's is? St. Mary’s would be down right a block south of Franz Bakery on
20th.
Oh yes. Is it called St. Mary's still?
Yes, it's still is...
The Giddens School is there...
Yes, the Giddens school is there but also the church. It is now the
largest Hispanic church in the state.
Interesting.
The rectory across the street was where the priest lived, that
was built by the community. Or I shouldn't say the community; one family
donated it. I think it was the Scalzo family. He said if they took care of
their daughter (pause) he would build them a sanctuary.
 |
| St. Mary's Rectory. Photo: Madeline Crowley |
The parishioners put the money up for those buildings,
not the church? I grew up in churches but they’d long been built before I was a
child so, I didn't know that.
You know where the old Colman school where that little field house
is? That was also built by the Italian community, said they didn't have the
money or something. So they built that and (pause) it stayed as a field house
and then they finally remodeled it and it was closed for years. That was like a
community center.
When they remodeled it did they leave the character?
Pretty much so on the outside. To go downstairs you still have
to go outside (laughs). They didn't put in any stairs inside.
So the Italian community really took care of itself. It must be
shocking now how things are now, comparatively.
Yes. How people (pause) just don't help each other.
It’s true. I think it’s regarded as an intrusion rather than an
opportunity to give.
Well, everyone on our block (even today) basically knows each
other. I would say maybe half the people get together. We try to have a couple
of street parties each year. We used to have three or four! Almost one a month
during the summer time. Now, it’s only this event, Night Out Against Crime. I'd
like to say we have quite a group that comes too.
Yeah, that sounds like your block is a lot more fun than many.
(laughs) When you look back at even how many theatres there used to be; it’s really changed. There was a Madrona Theatre, a Mt. Baker Theatre
that was around 25th and Jackson. (pause) and then there's was one on Capitol
Hill about 11th and Broadway. The Venetian Theatre was on 15th and Madison,
it's sort of a triangle. There used to be a theatre there.
 |
| 29th & Cherry. Former site of Madrona Theatre. Neon sign visible to the right Seattle PI - Now & Then, Seattle Movie Theaters |
You were busy, going to school and to work and...
Well, we also played. I remember playing baseball games.
What did you eat as a kid? Do you
remember what you had for breakfast?
Oh, boy! Well, I was never a breakfast person. I’m pretty sure
we’d have what we called mush.
Oatmeal?
Yes.
And for lunch a sandwich?
Yeah, but we didn’t like it because we would bring home made
bread and everyone else had the new American sliced bread. (laughs) {Garlic Gulch food history}
So you were embarrassed?
(laughs) Yeah. But I also remember buying the school lunches,
they were only a dime back.
What would be inside the bread?
Well, stuff you don’t see today.
That’s why I’m curious.
Well, eating boiled ham in square tins was a delicacy; it was a
privilege to get it. It was very expensive compared to bologna; that was 20
cents, if that.
Was it ham from Italy?
I remember the Cotto Salami. We used to get that in 5 or 10 pounds at a time. It was good because you could slice it for breakfast. It’s a dfferent salami. It comes in a round loaf. We used to make head cheese too.
 |
| Cotto Salami - http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/sausage.html |
What’s head cheese?
It’s the brains of the animal. It’s pickled.
Would you slather that on the Cotto?
Well, I don’t know. You could, we ate a lot of cheeses.
Were they made at home?
No, they were bought, I guess from Croce. I can remember round
balls of cheese hanging from the ceiling in the basement.
We grew up with gourmet cooks, though we didn’t know it at the
time. We made our own sausage, salami, and whatever else.
What were used for casings?
Pig intestines. Everything was good; it wasn’t like today. We just
used to go out and buy food; it was clean (compared to today).
My dad would get home at like twelve, one o'clock in the
morning. That's when he used to go out and dig in the garden because he said no
one was there to bother him. Nowhere to be. He'd go out and he'd basically turn
the soil, he'd do all his preparing at night. My uncle here who had the two
lots, he would get home around... five o'clock or say six. So he'd go out in
the summertime and probably work until eight or nine. And then go to bed. It's
just amazing at how much they got accomplished with just hand tools. They
didn't have a rototiller or anything like that. (pause) But we had our own
little hot boxes where you start your plants and stuff. They had wooden boxes
with a window over it. Nothing elaborate (laughs) but it worked.
And so you'd start the vegetables in roughly February?
Or whenever. So that you could plant them when (pause) they
actually started sprouting, the little like pepper plants and so on...
 |
| Photo: Madeline Crowley |
I guess in the summer you'd kind of share resources and people
would help each other harvest too...
Well, I don't really remember that so much but I do remember we
always had excess food you know, vegetables especially. (Pause) But then again
we also had excellent cooks.
Did your dad cook?
Yes, he did. He used to make his own lunch and everything to
take to work.
Did he teach you to cook?
No. Actually I've forgotten how to cook because of the microwave.
(laughs) I basically warm food up now, I don't really cook from scratch
anymore.
It's a lot of work. And it's hard to do it for one person.
It is. That's the hardest part. I liked this idea that when you
look at something and it's just for two people, and you know that'll be enough
for one meal (laughs). I know that they're working on that right now trying to
settle this serving size deal. I think it's just ridiculous, I don't know
anyone who eats the same three ounces of meat. I even have a problem with those
four or five ounces (laughs). Well, I don't care for steaks anymore.
I used to and now I just don't care anymore.
Does the meat tastes different?
I'm pretty sure it does but I don't know if that's me, or...
 |
| Photo: Madeline Crowley |
It's raised so differently. It didn't used to be raised in a
factory.
Yes.
Yeah, they're going back to grass fed beef.
Where are they going get enough grass? (laughs) I look at that
deal that they're doing to that (pause) rancher down at Texas. Is it Texas?
We've moved from a democracy to a corporate oligarchy...
I don't really know what we've got anymore. It certainly isn't (representing) the
people.
No, it's not. Did you go to Garfield High?
No. I went to Franklin. Went to the old Colman's school, and
then the old Washington Middle School, then onto Franklin High.
When did you graduate from Franklin?
1950.
What did you do after you graduated?
(pause) Actually I went I think into the service because I
worked in theatres first when I was in high school.
As an usher?
No, a doorman. Actually that was the first
paying job I ever had - a whole dollar an hour (laughs). But it was because my
brothers all worked in theatres. The brother here in this photo, he was the manager
at one point of the theater on 5th Avenue, and then the Neptune. He did the box
(office) in Spokane, and then they transferred him to California and, he had a
bunch of theatres down there.
I just remember him being mainly at those two theaters (in
Seattle). The other brother managed at the Orpheum and the Liberty and the
Paramount. The Liberty and the Coliseum, the Blue Mouse and the Music Box. Between my brothers we had every theatre in town covered, really (laughs). I worked
basically all of them but I never went any higher than doorman.
Back then did people buy food at the theatre or did they bring
their own food?
All they had was popcorn but then you've got to remember it was
only 15 or 20 cents for popcorn.
Okay, so people would come in and buy popcorn...
And I think it was 10 or 12 cents for a candy bar. I think if
they were 10-cent bars and they charged 12. Not like it is now (laughs). And it
was only a dollar and a quarter to get in.
 |
| http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2011/11/11/now-and-then-seattle-movie-theaters/#photo-26590 |
How often did people go to the movies?
Oh gosh, I don't... (pause) I would probably say two to three
times a week.
So it wasn't a special treat, it was sort of something you did as
often as you had time.
I think I remember Wednesday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights
were the big days. The thing you have to remember is on Sundays that was the
about the only thing that was open. We had blue laws in effect so you could go
to a baseball game but you could buy only food.
Back then, how long was Mass? Would the community stay together
and eat together, or would everybody go home?
Most people went home right after Mass. For certain events they
would stay at the church but as a rule, you just went to school, Mass, and then
went home.
Then was Sunday a day of rest?
Pretty much so. Then again when you work in theatres, you had to
work. So for everyone else it was a day of rest, which at that time I sort of
resented. Now I wish we had that again. I think it does a lot (pause) to have
family time. From what I can see now most families, they’re not as close
(laughs) as we were.
No. You guys worked really hard and you shared, your time and your
efforts. I bet all of the money all of the boys were making also went to taking
care of the family.
Oh, yes it did. (pause) I remember that one brother saying how
important that was especially during the Depression. Then I think my dad worked
three days a week; he didn't get laid off, but (instead) they cut the hours of
everyone.
What did your dad do at that point?
Oh he did? Okay, that's still there.
Yeah, but I don't think they're a foundry anymore because of the
smoke and all that. I think it's interesting when you go down the street and
look at the water main or something and there’s just a little foundry mark on
it (laughs). He started there in 1912.
Did a lot of Italians work there?
That was one of the problems, I think at one time they put a
picture in the paper and they said these seven guys or eight guys worked
something (in total) 300 and some years there. My dad retired in 1958. He'd
worked there 46 years and the only reason he retired was he didn't want to go
on a picket line and they were going to out on strike! He just said they're not
going to get what they want. They wanted 30 cents an hour. The company offered
a dime and he told us, they're gonna settle for a dime. And they did after
three weeks (laughs).
So he retired at that point.
Yes but he was 70 also, so… (laughs)
He was ready.
Yes.
And so you went into the Service after?
See, I had enlisted actually when I was in high school. And then
(pause) actually the Korean War started two days after our high school prom. I
didn't go right in there but I did go within a year and a half or something. I
did. I was in the Reserves so I was already attending and going through
training and everything. I think it was in 1952 when I was activated, the last
two years of the war. I basically stayed. I ended up retiring in '94, so.
(laughs)
You stayed in the military?
Well, as a Reservist mainly. I did have two or three stints of
active duty.
|
| A Gift of the Italian Community. The Colman Fieldhouse. Photo: Madeline Crowley |
You went to Korea three times?
Oh no, I went there basically just once. The point is when
you're in the Navy you don't go out. The time I did go, I did go on land. But I
mean most of the time we stayed off shore. I was in the Navy Air (pause). I
would say we were in a special group because we had to go twice a year. We were
(pause) mainly self-employed most of the time. I worked for Boeing (Company) for quite a
few years. And they had to more or less let you go anytime the government
requested it (reserve service).
Boeing was probably more sympathetic to that than most companies.
(laughs) Yes, very. (pause) Actually, for a while there they'd
make up the difference in pay that you were getting. Then after a while you
were making more than you were at the company (laughs) working for them (the Navy
Reserve) and Boeing. But I did get to go twice a year - you had to go to some
place in the Far East. We mainly went west. A couple of times we went east to
Spain and those places. I did that well probably until late 1984 or '85.
So you were career military?
I'd have to say so, yes.
Congratulations!
Yes. I get a pension and I get all my medical and everything
taken care of so…
That's terrific. A lot of people don't make it to military
retirement.
Well, the main reason I stayed was for the medical. I'd known
too many people at 25 dollars a day they couldn't even (afford a day in
hospital)… Well, that was what the hospitals used to charge then (per day) not
the two thousand dollars a day now.
Well, you were wise, because a lot of people can't stick it out to
military retirement. It really pays off if you do.
Well, I was in with a good group; I mean I was not the Army. Now,
I don't know if I could have stuck it out in the Army. But the Navy and the way
we traveled, and the assignments we would get. (pause) I mean, we were loaned
out to foreign countries to go down and help them and stuff like that.
So you would help if there was an emergency?
Well not necessarily that like… We'd go down to Panama, say.
Then we'd help… (pause) well, for stuff that was going on in Ecuador, and
Colombia. We'd be loaned out to those people to look for drug runners and...
Oh okay. That kind of thing is tough.
Yeah. And (pause) well like that. I'm trying to think we also
went to... El Salvador.
But to return to talking about the neighborhood, the biggest
change in the neighborhood was when they put in I-90.
Was there a commercial strip of Italian businesses?
Yes, they were mainly on Atlantic and Rainier Avenue. It’s all gone now; it was where the entrance to the freeway is now. There were two drugstores, four grocery stores, two barbers, a shoe repair and a cleaner and the Victory Theatre. Also the Cusic Glass Company.
 |
| One Italian Business from that area. From: http://www.rainiervalleyhistory.org /What%20We%20Do/remembering-garlic-gulch-1/eat-drink-and-be-happy |
Yes, they were mainly on Atlantic and Rainier Avenue. It’s all gone now; it was where the entrance to the freeway is now. There were two drugstores, four grocery stores, two barbers, a shoe repair and a cleaner and the Victory Theatre. Also the Cusic Glass Company.
Then was the decision to put in the
freeway financially devastating for the Italian community? That’s a lot of
businesses.
Yes, it took the entire thing; it took it out.
Did the government make good on the
loss of the businesses?
Well, I don’t feel that they did. We also had Darigold Milk
right there. They offered them 400K for their acres and the business. I know
most homeowners got 5K for their house and land.
I knew the family on 23rd and Judkins who had a brick
house. When the state bought that (land for the highway) there were two houses
and the brick house. That guy was so mad at the State because they offered him
six thousand for his house where Smith Park is now.
For your neighbors who’d come from
Italy it must have felt like whatever ground they’d gained building a business
and a home, they lost when then the freeway
came in.
came in.
The only one that I know that didn’t (lose ground) was the
person that went on to start PFI (Pacific Foods Importers), John Croce, he had a grocery store there.
What I-90 was built beside
devastation of the commercial part of the neighborhood, what other effects did
it have?
Well, at that time it was mostly the old people who’d stayed in
the area. I think we were successful in delaying it (the highway) long enough
that most of the old people had died out. Most of their kids were not
interested in staying in this neighborhood. Then when bussing started and that
didn’t help either. That caused a lot of people to move out too.
 |
| Photo: https://www.darigold.com/about-us |
See, after WWII most of the (returning) soldiers had the dream
of the big house on a big lot with a white picket fence. Then when Bellevue
started being built up in 1948 a lot of people moved to the east side. Houses
were cheaper there plus in Seattle the houses had small rooms in that most
homes were two-three bedrooms. We had large families in those days so they
wanted the new bigger houses. After the young men came back from the war and
moved to Bellevue that meant the (remaining) community was roughly then about
half the size.
Several of the families kept their property after they moved;
they hung onto the property. I don’t know if they still have it.
Since you stayed, did you find the
construction really disruptive?
Well, not really. It was in the sense that streets were closed
off especially the streets we used to go down.
So very little of the area resembles what
it did before?
No, it doesn’t. We had two blocks were a little enclave at the
bottom of the hill there. It’s zoned
commercial – it’s all apartments there now.
What used to be there?
The were homes, actually it’s pretty much in character was with
what’s up the hill there (from Hiawatha Place and towards Dearborn Street).
Across the way, though is very different. I hate to say it but Judkins
Park used to be a dump. They brought in steam shovels and when they covered it
over, we’d walk over it to go to school. Underneath, though, the springs are
still there.
Even over near my house, there was a Japanese guy on Hiawatha
and he had a natural pond there with fish in it and everything. He didn’t have
to fill it, it was there (the natural springs). Then, when they (the city)
paved our street it dried up and he was very unhappy. Now, that I think about
it, we used to have a well where we could get water. And that dried up.
A lot of parks in Seattle were built on landfill: Judkins and
Genesee being just two. The whole landscape was transformed, all the way from
Rainier Beach to Franklin High School used to be under water ‘til they lowered
Lake Washington. That’s why Rainier Avenue was raised; it’s about 30 feet
higher than it is naturally. If you go to Bud’s on Dearborn (Speedway Bud's Muffler) and you look, well
you can’t really tell, because they did the fill. If you look in the back, at
the way the alley goes down that was the normal level, and you can get an idea.
If you look where the Burger King is now, there used to be a sauna there but it
was 30 feet below ground level now.
 |
| Alley behind Bud's looking up to Dearborn, gives a sense of rise up to current street level Photo: Madeline Crowley |
My aunt used to go to parties two houses south of Buds in 1915,
They had a party in there because two of my uncles were going back to Italy. Where
the Darigold was (where the highway entrance is) there was whippoorwills there.
Up to 3rd Avenue & Jackson was all water. It was wetlands.
You mentioned also that there was ditch?
Was it natural?
No. In the old days when they cut through for H-10 (Highway 10 which preceded I-90) they had cut steep banks. You can still see it when you
come out of the tunnel and look to the right that concrete wasn’t there and
then you’d have a huge ditch (that the freeway ran through). The only way we
got it is, we said, the people on Mercer Island are getting a tunnel; we want
one too. We had it structured so that they couldn’t build on it either. A lot
of places over the freeways they’ve built a series of apartments and we didn’t
want them to do that.
So, you know our group was responsible for getting them to build
a tunnel. Before they built the new I-90 there was a deep ditch there with a
walking bridge on 24th Avenue and one for cars at 23rd (Avenue).
Thank you for the interview and more
importantly for working to sure the City provided a tunnel, parks and received
some benefits from the freeway coming in.
More on Vince Furfaro: Vince Furfaro on Sand Point
Transcribed by the warm, wonderful Zoe Chee to whom we are very grateful.
© Madeline Crowley People of the Central Area 2016 All material is covered by copyright. Express written permission must be given for any copyrighted material on this page. Email to request permission to copy or paste materials.
Transcribed by the warm, wonderful Zoe Chee to whom we are very grateful.
© Madeline Crowley People of the Central Area 2016 All material is covered by copyright. Express written permission must be given for any copyrighted material on this page. Email to request permission to copy or paste materials.
 |
This project was supported in part by
4Culture's Heritage Projects program |
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